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Old, archived, posted here for your amusement. Started out as a discussion of Zer0 the Fuckup's notions of health insurance management.

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If only there were some way to offer more, cheaper options....

How to Make Health Insurance Less Expensive: Stop Requiring More Expensive Plans
For those still scratching their heads, trying to figure out how to produce a health insurance market where premiums are less expensive, it turns out
REASON.COM
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D. R. Zinn, Justin Chamberlin, Sean Naylor and 34 others like this.
3 shares

George Avery I made that argument on a PBS show filmed by WNIT in 2009.
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Mark Wandrey First thing they did is outlaw the catastrophic only coverage that I used to have for years. Even when I had to work 2 jobs to make ends meet, I could still afford that policy. They're just helping the shit out of poor people, aren't they?
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Mark Wandrey They 'progressives and gimme-dats' have turned 'insurance' into a benefit. We're fucked.
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Michael Z. Williamson Mark Wandrey: that plan was inadequate and racist, and if you were enlightened you'd know that.
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George Avery Adding in guaranteed issue and community rating (so the underwriters can't judge risk and set rates based on it) also drives up costs.
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Mark Wandrey I know. I'm going to go get a sex change now.

Where do i go for race reassignment? I'm tired of being an oppressor.
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George Avery I got attacked by some biddy retired from IU when I gave a talk on the problems and logical fallacies of the ACA in 2011 at the Indiana Public Health Association Meeting - and even though she agreed I was probably right
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Mike Walther Yep, first thing Obamacare did was make the most affordable health insurance plans illegal. Only a moron would conclude that this would actually make health insurance plans "more affordable."
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George Avery But if you like your plan, you can keep it. Right?
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Eric A. Carr I used to have insurance from my employer tailor-made for me. Now I have to have women's healthcare coverage and pediatric coverage (including dental and eye care). I have to pay extra for dental and eye care for myself. And I'm single with no child...See More
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George Avery That wasn't the point - it was about control. That has been the subtheme in the healthcare reformers since the 1920s. Whatever benefits they claimed at the time, they always claimed that it was necessary to have "experts" controlling the decision so that everyone got the "right" coverage/care/etc.
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Brian S Anderson Eh, you're all racists, clinging to your guns and religion!
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Kevin J. Coolidge Hey, an even better idea is make health care affordable, and then I'd just pay out of pocket for the 3 times I've been to the doctor.
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George Avery This really gets me going - I did my PhD in Health Services Research and Policy at Minnesota (one of the few islands of non-Leftist thought on the issue, ironically). I am amazed at how many supposed health economists completely toss what we know about...See More
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George Avery For office visits, you can often get a lower rate for paying cash than insurance companies negotiate - it is worth it to the practice to avoid the administrative headaches of dealing with a health plan. Probably not a coincidence that the sharp rise in...See More
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Wick Deer But the free market was working so well pre-ACA.
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Kurt Schneider For a very unusual definition of 'free'...
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Mark Wandrey And it's working so much better now.
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Mark Wandrey When one wing of your house is on fire, tossing a Molotov in another room and declaring the problem fixed is a uniquely progressive solution.
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Mark Wandrey The ACA was designed to fix things so well that a single payer would look like an improvement. Congrats, Wickie, you're crowd has got it down pat.
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George Avery We haven't had a reasonably free healthcare market since before 1965. In the 1950s, the federal government started requiring restrictions on the supply of care under guaranteed issue rules (bought with funds for upgrading hospitals). Medicare and Medic...See More
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Deborah S Franklin Tobacco surcharge goes into effect in 2015. No, I don't smoke, but being forced to take a blood test to prove I'm not lying, makes my blood pressure rise. Surely that's not healthy? And what gets me are people who are okay with that but are livid over an employment or welfare piss test! How is one humiliating and degrading and the other not?
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Kevin Trainor Jr. Eric A. Carr, why can't you just shut up and enjoy your free birth control pills and pap smears?
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Robert Ries What 'free market'? The one that forbade insurance being sold across state lines?
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Autumn Crow I like my marketplace healthcare. I used to pay $250 a month for a really crappy plan. You old guys pay for what we want, and us younger people will burden the wars, bailouts, insane tax cuts for corporations, we will also take your social security, and call it even
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George Avery The sad thing is, you young people get screwed the worst by Obamacare. You are the lowest risk portion of the population, and end up under community rating being charged much higher premiums than you would if your premiums were fully risk adjusted. We ...See More
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Autumn Crow Yeah? I pay $50 a month for a pretty great plan that has a $700 maximum out of pocket deductible. I used to pay $250 a month for a $1000 minimum deductible, and was denied coverage several times due to pre-existing conditions. How is that worse? I have two jobs and I'm a nursing student with a pile of student debt. Seriously.
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Autumn Crow And risk? I had meningitis last year. I have tmd. My sister has high blood pressure. I know a lot of young people with health problems, most likely due to people dumping crap into our food due to lax regulations.
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Autumn Crow Raise taxes on the abominably wealthy. Actually make companies that have businesses here pay taxes here. You old guys let that happen.
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George Avery Food contamination illnesses, ironically, are most common in "healthy" organic food. "Organic" means "fertilized with manure," thus "contaminated with fecal bacteria."
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Autumn Crow I didn't say organic. Don't fabricate arguments. I'm speaking of red dye 40, and many neurotoxins sprayed onto food. Also, preservatives.
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Autumn Crow Hydrogenated fats. MSG.
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Autumn Crow And there's a special thing you do to food.... You wash it
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George Avery What? Roundup? Breaks down into the most common amino acid and phosphate on contact with chlorine. Rinse with tap water. Sevin (most common cholineesterase inhibitor pesticide) has a half-life of days and is easily removed by rinsing, as opposed to old...See More
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Mark Wandrey George, the young always get screwed the most in socialist schemes. Well, the old too, but they have less to lose (according to libprogs).
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Autumn Crow I think that arguing that we are better than we used to be is a foolish argument. I disagree with it because we have different diseases of the mind and body that are far more alien than E. coli or salmonella. We could be a lot better if we made adjustm...See More
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Autumn Crow Yes, the young were screwed into interstates, active duty military with healthcare and gi bill, federal aid for students, Medicaid/Medicare... You were so screwed, you shouldn't even bother with any of these things. Don't drive on my roads, don't use my police, don't call my ems.
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Michael Z. Williamson Autumn Crow: It's cute that you think companies pay taxes. I just move that into the "Expense" column, and charge it to the customer, plus bookkeeping costs and markup. _YOU_ pay 100% of corporate taxes, just in the most passive-aggressive fashion possible.

And 100% of Bill Gates' wealth would last the USG less than a day.

As to his income, he earns under a million $ a year. The rest is held in a trust which he directs. You'll never touch it, and if you try, he can host it in a more reasonable nation (which on this matter, is actually most, even "progressive" Europe doesn't punish corporations the way the US does).

"Your" roads, that you want others to pay for. How cute. How about MY roads, and you stop driving on them until you pay your fair share?
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Gerald Blackwell There is a *much* cheaper option, and given that this is me talkin', everybody here knows what it is...
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Michael Z. Williamson I'll bet you're anti-GMO, too. So I'm going to invoke a biologist and a doctor of neurology. Jessica Schlenker and Tedd SpeakertoLabanimals Roberts, the target is yours.
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Michael Z. Williamson But I do look forward to the full implementation of 0care into the system the Dutch use, where the young are NOT given any exemptions and pay the same as the old guys. That first $12,000 bill for the year will really bring tears of joy to their eyes. That is joy, right?
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Autumn Crow I majored in neuroscience at USC. I'm not as knowledgeable as them, surely, but that doesn't mean they're right.

And I never said corporations pay taxes. I say they don't. Walmart? GE? Soon to be Walgreens... I know a bit about the tax loophole that involves manipulated reporting practices from one country to another in the same business. I don't know how you got that impression. And I don't care what sort of writer you are, I'm not intimidated by condescension. It's the internet. No one cares.
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Bill Seward Maybe that "free market" thing could help bring the price down. We ought to try it some time. <Steve Martin>Nah!!</Steve Martin>
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Ted Nelson Well, shucks, can we release the Corrieakan yet?

Heck, call LTC Kratman, and end things for sure.
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Autumn Crow And I do pay taxes, in the form of sales tax. I am also very very young, and I highly doubt you were contributing much when you were 21.
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Autumn Crow It doesn't really matter how we disagree and bicker. It doesn't matter for very long what your generation thinks. Mine is violent, self-serving, vengeful, desensitized, and quite angry. Yours will be in diapers, too old to drive, too feeble to pull a trigger, when mine decides yours is irrelevant.
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Gerald Blackwell Bill, are you talking about a market free from manipulation and coercion???

BWAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!
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Bill Seward Gerald, I can dream. It's still a free country for certain values of free.
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Robert Ries Ms. Crow, your bigotry, stereotyping and ignorance (most markedly of basic economics) are noted.

It is also noted that you have run out of refutations and devolved to insults. That equals concession in the realm of debate.
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Robert Ries As for violent, you are talking to a bunch of people who own many firearms (understatement), train regularly, many have significant military training and the great majority of us have made violence a recreational hobby, in a multitude of forms.

We haven't even STARTED to BEGIN to be 'violent'. But your Grand Theft Auto generation is welcome to try to start the fun and games. Bring it.
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Eric Denison Autumn Crow: know what you're going to have when your "violent, self-serving, vengeful, desensitized, and quite angry" bunch gains control of anything? A dysfunctional shit-hole (e.g. the "Mad Max" universe and modern-day Iraq under ISIS)
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Autumn Crow Yes. That is why we are angry. Very good. And?
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Robert Ries So, you are angry at your own incompetence?

Oy vey.....
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Tedd SpeakertoLabanimals Roberts Oy indeed, not even going to try.
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Buddy Ellis Wal-Mart was one of the top paying corporations as far as tax, somewhere around 30 percent, which they happily passed down to you. Oh and that was behind Exxon (go #1!) , who also 'pay no taxes'.
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Joseph Capdepon II Oh please Autumn, get over yourself. You are the worst of the younger generation. How old are you? In your early 20's I take it?

Violent? Ha, you don't know violent. You little idiots may know how to take a shit on cop cars, loiter and put up tents in parks, or set stuff on fire, but you don't know shit about violence. You idiots can't work together.

You idiots will be cannon fodder and nothing more.

It won't be someone like you that is leading, though you may be his play toy, until he gets bored with you and gives you to his men.

No, it is idiots like you that are going to lead us to that path. You love you some big government and you will just keep pushing and pushing until the whole house of cards comes tumbling down.
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Autumn Crow With an annual revenue of over 420 billion, I think that 30 billion is sizeably reduced when you factor in subsidies, what they're not providing for their employees which tax payers are making up for, squashing of local economies, and countless other loopholes I'm sure they find. 4 billion is a lot, but me paying $5,000 to the government on two jobs and a full time college education? That's my rent for 10 months. That's all the gas I use in over a year. It isn't quite equal.
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Buddy Ellis Are you too dense to understand that a tax on corporations is little more than a regressive tax that is handed back down the chain to the customer? And that it hurts 'people working two jobs' to make ends meet more than anyone? Really.
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Joseph Capdepon II Whine, whine, whine. All you types ever do is whine and cry and bitch and moan.

Boo hoo, the evil corporations are doing something evil. We have to get government to stop them! Get government to change something so that something else will be better!

The same tired bullshit, spewed over and over again.

Tax the rich! They don't pay a fair share! Tax corporations more! That will fix everything! Raise the minimum wage! Free healthcare for everyone!

The government is a magic fairy that will fix everything!

I welcome the collapse. I will laugh and dance with joy as all the whiny little assholes are gobbled up. I will dance with joy as they turn on one another because they have no trust relationship there.
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Autumn Crow I love efficient government, and overweight, Caucasian males in their 40s, 50s, and 60s who can't think of any other better insult than "slut" are simply pathetic.
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Autumn Crow Yes. Because trickle down economics worked very well under the Bush Administration.
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Joseph Capdepon II 32 here darling and I don't see where anyone said slut, so don't put words in anyone's mouth.
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Michael Z. Williamson Efficient government. There's an oxymoron. Please point to one.

However, I do think epithets are uncalled for and unuseful. Including fat-shaming, ageism, and racist terms.
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Autumn Crow I think calling me a plaything insinuates slut.
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Joseph Capdepon II No Autumn. Read for context. Understand what the words and sentences mean. Not what you think they mean, what they actually mean.
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Autumn Crow I didn't include anyone in their 70s or older. I enjoy voters who remember FDR differently than Fox News.
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Autumn Crow Plenty of governments are efficient. Not perfect, but that's a lot to ask for. How is bailing out the people and jailing the bankers at all not efficient? Providing healthcare and maternity leave? Yes, I think a good and efficient government, small in size, wide in reach, would be a good thing.
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Joseph Capdepon II Oh no y'all. She is pulling out all the stops here. Let's hear how FDR was this awesome President that did wonders for the country. How he got us out of the Great Depression(when actually his programs helped to lengthen it) or how those Japanese-Americans totally deserved to be locked up in camps, have their property and homes confiscated. Or how about Social Security? That was just a brilliant idea there! I love having a portion of my paycheck stolen from me on some vague promise that I may see it when I reach retirement age.
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Michael Z. Williamson When I was 21 I was serving on active duty, earning about 1/4 what the private sector would pay for my skillset. I'm also an immigrant from the utopiae of Canada and the UK. May I suggest you do what I did, find a country you like, and move there?

Oh, voters who remember FDR for stealing their bullion, attempting to pack the Court with extra justices, putting 110,000 Asians in concentration camps, eugenics and racism? (Refused to shake hands with Jesse Owens, which even Hitler did).

THAT FDR?
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Michael Z. Williamson Well, let's be fair, Joseph Capdepon II. They weren't all Japanese.

All those Asians looked alike to him.
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Buddy Ellis I'd wonder what you consider 'fair'. 50% 70? 90? At which point have you stolen enough money from others for your 'efficient government?'
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Joseph Capdepon II Well yeah. They totally deserved it though. FDR was doing the *right* thing.
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Joseph Capdepon II Larry Correia knows a bit about FDR, being he researched him for his Grimnoir series. I'm sure he probably has wonderful things to say about him.
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Autumn Crow I live here. I'm not going anywhere, I didn't offer to move. YOU may move, I you like. I don't care. I reiterate, a citizen in diapers is a citizen that can't very well argue.

FDR did do the right things. And profiling is a real thing. Notice all the people in your mindset. The average FOX news viewer. Baby boomer. Caucasian. Overweight. It's not rude if it's a statistic.
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Michael Z. Williamson Autumn Crow: Let's try basic arithmetic once again:

Tax is a cost to a business. I just move that into the "Expense" column, and charge it to the customer, plus bookkeeping costs and markup. _YOU_ pay 100% of corporate taxes, just in the most passive-aggressive fashion possible.

If you cannot grasp this basic fact, you probably won't enjoy debating here, with people with far more expertise in just about everything than you.
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Autumn Crow I'm so sorry to tell you this, but tagging people I don't know won't really matter. It's the internet. No one cares.
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Michael Z. Williamson "FDR did do the right things. And profiling is a real thing."

So, you support putting people in concentration camps based on their race, and continue with the ageism and fat shaming. Please continue. It's fascinating to hear a "liberal" be "tolerant."
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Autumn Crow I never claimed to be liberal. That's a foolish thought.
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Michael Z. Williamson Obviously. You're a textbook fascist.
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Joseph Capdepon II Autumn, you may be surprised at this, but a vast majority of the people commenting here, probably don't watch Fox News, or any major news channel at that for their news.

You keep making assumptions and one should never make assumptions.
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Buddy Ellis Why don't you get back to the facts and answer my question instead if trying to acting like a 4th header calling people fatso?
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Autumn Crow Profiling is usually very accurate.
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Joseph Capdepon II Well, if it quacks like a duck and looks like a duck it must be a duck.
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Michael Z. Williamson Indeed. And my profile of you is "bigoted, ignorant troll."
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Autumn Crow I never said fatso. I said overweight. Those are two things and the former is derogatory.
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Autumn Crow Mine of you is conceited and irrelevant. I guess it would be even.
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Autumn Crow Except I will be irrelevant after you. I will have time to make your old age just miserable enough
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Joseph Capdepon II Ha ha ha. Now that is funny.
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Michael Z. Williamson So, of the 110,000 Asians FDR put into concentration camps, including George Takei, what percentage would you say were a threat to the US? Please cite your numbers.
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Michael Z. Williamson And obviously, you support the profiling used for Guantanamo, right, Autumn Crow? Or is it only okay when liberals do it? Oh, wait--0bama has yet to close it.
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Joseph Capdepon II And it looks like he will be sending the military back into Iraq as well.
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Joseph Capdepon II When is Code Pink going to start protesting at the White House?
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Autumn Crow I think it was not only his decision. Just like I don't blame George Bush for Iraq. I also think it was precautionary and people were afraid and didn't know what to do. I also think people need to get over it. Shit happens. It sucks. Move on. Great leaders sometimes do shitty things. It happens.
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Buddy Ellis Mike she ain't got no numbers, just a rude, tiresome manner about herself
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Autumn Crow Oh, no, I support Guantanamo.
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Autumn Crow You don't have any numbers. I provided numbers. You did not. I had to go looking for the numbers you provided.
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Joseph Capdepon II What great leader would that be?
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Michael Z. Williamson Well, at least you're an honest fascist. It'll be fascinating when you're the one in the camp, though.
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Brian Smith For those that think we need more government to control powerful corporations, who do you think is going to have more influence over that government? Those big and powerful corporations, or you sitting at home posting snarky memes on facebook (also one of those big evil corporations).
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Joseph Capdepon II Autumn, do you know what a useful idiot is?
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Autumn Crow This is my night off. I shall do as I please. And no offense, but no one with actual credentials boasts about them on Facebook.
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Philip S. Bolger I love this thread and everything about it.
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Autumn Crow I assume your nickname in high school?
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Michael Z. Williamson Isn't she just precious? I can't pay for entertainment like this.
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Michael Z. Williamson If you think you can make my life miserable, you arrogate a lot of competence to yourself. I've shit scarier things than you even without the amoebic dysentery I picked up in Iraq.
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Buddy Ellis No, you said they paid no taxes. I said they were in the top ten. Your statement was patently incorrect, abs so you moved the posts and said they didn't pay enough. To which I tried 'how much is enough.' To which you started making more crap up. You're just precious.
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Philip S. Bolger It's like the universe realized we needed one simple example of everything wrong with the modern left, and lo and behold, a spectacular, shining paragon of such was delivered to the wall of MZW...
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Joseph Capdepon II "I'm not a Progressives/Leftist/Liberal, even though I parrot their talking points about everything!"
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Colin Rierson I'd just like to point out that it isn't just the old farts like Mike who think her line of thought is retarded. Now I'm going back to drinking.
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Autumn Crow That's quite enough ball-busting. Goodnight, gentleman
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Philip S. Bolger Please, come back any time.
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Buddy Ellis "mom, they called me a retard!!"
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Benjamin Blatt That...that was ball busting? Admit it, you're really a 12 year old Redditor, aren't you?
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Autumn Crow Yes
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Michael Z. Williamson Haha. Oh, she sure told us. We're old (Except I can still pass the PT tests for all four branches as an 18 year old), fat (except I'm about 190 at 6' and can bench her with one arm), stupid (except of course for those of us with advanced degrees and successful careers)(Oh, right, no one with any credibility EVER IDs themself on Facebook) (In her universe, I doubt there are any), and we've been properly put in our place.

I think I'm going to open a bottle of $120 Scotch and console myself. Then I shall retreat to the back room and beat the black gentleman of color I keep to assuage my white privilege.

My balls, they ache so much.

Delightful. This will make an awesome blog post with the screen cap.

Benjamin Blatt Of course not. People with credibility maintain honest, emotional, and even-handed Tumblrs
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Buddy Ellis I think you need another pair of parents in there. I only had to read it once.
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Autumn Crow I never said stupid. For a writer, you don't read closely.
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Autumn Crow You can be wrong and smart.
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Autumn Crow Which, you are.
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Autumn Crow And I highly doubt you could maintain PT for the Marines. I require proof. Your word- not good enough, and no one likes a braggart. Except other braggarts.
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Michael Z. Williamson I thought you were leaving. Honesty a problem for you, too?

BTW, looks like your muscle tone is a bit slack. Not getting enough exercise, are we? And I could read from the reflections off your skin. You're whiter than I am and I'm from Scotland.
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Autumn Crow And fat is a noun. Overweight is an adjective. I continuously press this.
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Michael Z. Williamson I don't believe I have to prove anything to you. It's the internet. However, google is your friend, and there are plenty of veterans on this wall who've met or served with me.
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Michael Z. Williamson Overweight still fits the category of "fat shaming." Though looking at your photos, you have little room to talk.
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Michael Z. Williamson And fat can most certainly be an adjective. Is there any subject you do know at an elementary level?
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Autumn Crow I am half Israeli and half native American. My skin color doesn't pose a problem. I don't get enough exercise. I was shot in the chest when I was 17, and I had meningitis last year. I don't have a problem with this.
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Autumn Crow Fat is used incorrectly as an adjective.
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Michael Z. Williamson Ah, a war hero now. And a minority times two. Wait, aren't Jews considered white and privileged now?
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Autumn Crow Apparently not. You seem to enjoy arguing with me.
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Michael Z. Williamson Awesome. I shall certainly consult with you on my next writing contract. I'm sure the editors will approve of your contributions.
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Buddy Ellis Fat. adjective
1.
(of a person or animal) having a large amount of excess flesh.
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Autumn Crow Hahaa you're becoming very nasty it's just the internet.
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Buddy Ellis Try again.
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Michael Z. Williamson Yes, I totally suck. It's the white gene.
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Joseph Capdepon II Wait, people are arguing with you because you claim to be Israeli?
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Benjamin Blatt Fun fact: Autumn's express ageism could bar her from nursing licensure, if anyone cares to screen cap this. Normally I wouldn't give a shit, but Autumn's repeated attempts at fat shaming are annoying.
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Joseph Capdepon II Now people are being mean!

Check your privilege you whitey mchaters!

 

Autumn Crow I don't really go by the dictionary that included selfie and twerk. I prefer the medical definition. I don't know why you're so hung up about it. Butthurt, apparently it's real.
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Autumn Crow Go ahead find me
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Michael Z. Williamson Well, except for the fact that we don't use the medical dictionary for colloquial or legal definitions. Or social ones.

Find you? You REALLY don't want to make that challenge on this wall. Andrew, want to play?
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Autumn Crow Hahahaaaa
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Autumn Crow I kind of do. I kind of don't. I don't think you're bluffing. But I'm interested.
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Buddy Ellis You're the one who insisted, twice, that fat was only used correctly as a noun. I mean the changing the subject, ad hom, it might work for you in your college debate class but it don't fly in the real world, so practice up buttercup.
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Michael Z. Williamson If he's awake and interested. I'm actually editing in between comments, so I'm not losing any productive time.

Hmm.."Efficient government," profiling, racism, ageism, fat shaming, ableism. We may have an actual Nazi here. You don't see them in public often.

But I don't know if you're interesting enough to bother with once I wake up. DragonCon approaches and I have presentations to prepare for.
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Jim Bellmore This is hilarious! Michael Z. Williamson - are you bringing her to Dragon Con?
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Andrew Kirch I don't have time to find her, can't she just go give herself a shower?
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Joseph Capdepon II She also claims to be half Israeli, half Native American, but she looks like she would burst into flame if the sun hit her.
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Andrew Kirch right if she's jewish and fascist she can give he