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"Mr. Williamson, with all due respect, you don't appear to realize that you are not only dealing with a number of people here who are smarter than you are, but are also better educated in science than you are. It may help to keep in mind that at Vox Popoli, those who live by the rhetoric tend to die quickly and brutally by the dialectic."
That's the funniest thing I've read this week. Thanks.
I was at first interested in your site. I thought I had found the anti-Scalzi.  And in fact, I have.
That is not a compliment.

From an exchange with Vox Day (Who lists me as a writer of interest), when I criticized his fetish for Creationism.

~~~

"Mr. Williamson, with all due respect, you don't appear to realize that you are not only dealing with a number of people here who are smarter than you are, but are also better educated in science than you are. It may help to keep in mind that at Vox Popoli, those who live by the rhetoric tend to die quickly and brutally by the dialectic."

That's the funniest thing I've read this week. Thanks.

I was at first interested in your site. I thought I had found the anti-Scalzi.  And in fact, I have.

that is not a compliment.

~~~

So, first, by what metric does he assume, after one email exchange and a couple of comments that there are a "number of people" there who are smarter than me?

It's certainly not impossible, but per standardized testing, the odds are 99.8% in my favor.  That is a mathematical extraction based on my tested IQ.  So unless his blog is a haven for pure geniuses, it seems unlikely.  Nor have I seen much demonstration of any hard scientific knowledge among his supporters.  Though to be fair, I haven't read much of his blog and don't plan to.

Given that most of the interest there is in unquantifiable local social issues, devoid of cites or analysis, it's untestable, but my perception is his belief is incorrect.  There's a lot of opinion there--some little of which I concur with--but a lot of BS, including the obsession with myth (Creationism) over science.  It even repeats the "Evolution is losing support among scientists!" bleat that's been around since...Darwin.  Yet every year we have better information, better ability to define what we're looking at, and better ability to predict what we don't see.  That's called "Science."  He even cutely entitles his response to me, "rhetoric is not science."  Indeed.  His rhetoric is not science.

Second, he seems unaware that for Darwin to be challenged is a POSITIVE thing for science.  It means we've refined the theory and have improved precision.  Much like the Earth went from spherical to oblate to precisely delineated, and we are now working on equations to explain orogenous upthrust (which isn't as sexy as it sounds).

Third, it doesn't matter how smart or educated either of us is. Facts are facts.  Extrapolations are extrapolations.  And mythic fantasy is mythic fantasy, even when called "religion."  It is untestable, unprovable, and not scientific.  There's also an implied assumption that the scientists working in genetics aren't as smart as...a blogger.  Which again, is not impossible, but is irrelevant.

He knows nothing about me other than our two emails and a couple of comments.  But he knows I'm not as smart as he because I "believe" different things.  In point of fact, I believe very little.  I observe.  If there is no conclusion to be reached, I delay judgment until there is.

Fourth, it's entirely possible to disagree with the modern American left, while being just as idiotic, prejudiced and intellectually dishonest as its worst practitioners...which he ably demonstrates (forex, constantly calling Scalzi "McRapey," apparently completely missing the point of one of John's blogs that I do agree with), despite his ability to solve the softball pre-algebra question I tossed at him.  During the Spanish Civil War, the Fascists and the Communists were diametrically opposed, yet largely indistinguishable.  Or in a non-Godwin sense, pick European peasants forced to choose between Viking raiders or the Franks.

And Darwin's (or any) ideas are only "dangerous" to bleating ideologues.  Information falls across a spectrum from factual to opinion, from useful to not.  A truly smart person analyzes the content and comes to a conclusion, adapting the conclusions as needed as new facts are presented.  That, we call "Science."


 Links:

http://voxday.blogspot.com/2013/04/pz-myers-throws-out-darwin.html

As I have predicted for years that they would, biologists are beginning to turn away from Darwin's dangerous idea of evolution by natural selection.  Even self-styled champions of evolution such as PZ Myers have reached the point of giving up on their erstwhile secular saint:

We aren’t using Darwin’s model anymore; he had no accurate notion of how inheritance worked, for instance — genes and alleles, the stuff of most modern theory, are not present anywhere in his works. “Darwinian” is also problematic. It does have a specific, technical meaning, but it’s often applied thoughtlessly to every process in evolution.

http://voxday.blogspot.com/2013/04/mailvox-rhetoric-is-not-science.html

Besides, everyone knows Coyote and the Great Spirit created the universe.

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http://www.quinnipiac.edu/institutes--centers/polling-institute/pennsylvania/release-detail?ReleaseID=1843

I have been asked for an opinion on the above poll, showing "90% of Americans support background checks," and how I would respond to people who cite it. It also asks what people think of armed guards in school, and how effective they think it would be.

The question shown is simplistic and without context, and is a straw man.

Would it matter? 90% of Americans used to support slavery. 90% used to support bans on "pornography" that included the Kama Sutra. It's nice that they have a poll. I have a Constitution. ;)

And what untrained amateurs think of security protocols is uninteresting to me.

Also, there ARE background checks at gun shows, so the question is irrelevant. EXACTLY THE SAME LAWS apply at a gun show as apply outside a gun show. There is no such thing as a "gun show loophole." Just because a dealer sets up at an event hall, doesn't exempt him from NICS checks and Forms 4473, anymore than it exempts him from sales tax.

Speaking of which, when are we closing the "garage sale loophole" that lets people sell things without paying sales or income tax? (Trick question. Technically, you're supposed to collect and pay sales tax on garage sales in most states, and you are certainly required to either pay income tax or file to show depreciation of the used goods.) See how this works? Lie that something happens, claim said imaginary happening is a loophole, call for changes "for the chiiiiiildren!" Take a poll. Pretend it matters.

Yes, a private citizen, NOT ENGAGED IN BUSINESS can sell personal property, even a gun, without a license. This has ALWAYS been true. If you change that, then you cannot complain if at some point they start requiring official drive searches for kiddie porn before selling personal computers, or actually send agents around to collect sales tax from your garage sale. Or, they may start raiding and shutting down farms for selling "unlicensed milk." (Does that sound familar? Because it happens.) If you give the government power, they are going to take it. Once they have it, you can't complain about it, because you gave it to them.

I have made such sales myself, btw. Usually of antique Spanish or Smith & Wesson revolvers from my collection, usually logged into a book and logged back out, since I have a license to collect (which offers me some specific benefits as far as shipping and receiving).

But any FFL selling guns must do a NICS check on EVERY sale, no matter where it takes place, and there are already strict legal limits on WHERE they can conduct said sales (for example, they must be within state). And no wholesaler or manufacturer will sell to anyone who does not have an FFL, because legally they can't. That FFL is necessary to get inventory.

There is simply no possible way to operate a gun business without licenses and NICS checks without running afoul of the law, and rapidly getting noticed.

And by the way, there are ATF agents at most gun shows. Some of them are shopping for personal or duty weapons. Some are resolving legal inquiries from dealers. And some are acting in capacity as enforcement. 

As far as "guns sold on the internet," they either must go through an FFL, or be sold face to face, if private, much like they were when such ads were placed in newspapers. So the question here is: Why do you hate the internet?  Why do you hate modern communication?

Can someone make a sale to someone illicit anyway? Yes. You know what we call those people?  Criminals. And guess what?  THEY DID THAT ANYWAY, and will do it anyway. That's what it means to be a criminal.

But when they drag your ass away for selling or possessing unlicensed milk that wasn't properly pasteurized, etc, "for the children," don't expect any sympathy.  When they jail you for tax evasion over the "Garage sale loophole," no sympathy.  It's what you voted for and wanted.  

Nor can you ever complain about TSA, who checks travelers to "keep us safe" and "protect the children."  If it prevents just one bomb, won't it be worth it?

And next time, try having a clue what you're talking about before engaging in debate.

Details

I'm going to show I can create a better conspiracy then the conspiritards.

"Hey, we need you to help us crash airliners into the WTC and kill several thousand people to further our agenda."

"WTF?  Dude...is this a joke?  Go @#$^ yourself."

"Hey, we want you to help us orchestrate shooting some kindergartners to get control in place."

"What kind of #@$ing monster are you?  Seriously."

"Hey, we want to set off a couple of bombs at the Boston Marathon, so we can get the drone program and RFID in place.  If we do it right, it shouldn't hurt many people, though of course, collaterals are possible.  Just some nice loud distractions at the end.  That way, any large gathering will be a just target for drones, scans and otherwise. Overall, this will mean less real attacks.  The cost benefit is positive."

"Makes sense.  Okay, I'll help."

BANG!

"Dude!  WTF?  That actually killed and maimed a lot of people!  You said that wasn't going to happen."

"Well, it had to be big enough to get people's attention."

"That's not what I signed on for.  I'll tell..."

"Who, exactly?  Even if you managed to tie us in, you're complicit and the mob would kill you.  And you carried the bombs, so you're the logical suspect. We're all high-ranking officials with excellent cover.  Best keep your mouth shut if you know what's good for you."

"!@#$&!"

"Yeah, whatever.  Remember, we need drones, RFID and better monitoring of the internet.  Even if you blame this on the Muslims."

~~~

I don't believe it, but this one would at least be feasible.

In reality, this is going to come down to:

RIFs who have learned to scale their attacks and keep quiet about them, lest the US military show up and sodomize them with JDAMs, or some native crazy who hates something or other.  If the latter, given the target, I expect it's some anti-capitalist lefty.

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I like to interact with people, and I find I learn more about them, and about myself, by interacting with people I may not agree with. Either one of us persuades the other, or we learn more about ourselves, or we find new insights into our positions.
This apparently isn't common.
I've occasionally interacted on Facebook with one Ashley Protagonist Holmes, as she styles herself. She's big on gender issues, race and social issues. I probably agree with her about 40% overall, which is better than average.
I was looking at some links on her page, and the tone there was strident. I do that myself. No harm, no foul. However, if one is fighting stereotypes, one should avoid using them oneself. I made a polite comment that a message aimed at people in general agreement, with the intent of bringing them closer, should be worded amiably, not accusatorily. She seemed to miss the thrust, replied with something else, and I posted my infamous summary of worldwide historical repression, because a lot of Americans (apparently including her) miss that there's a lot more to it than black/white and the former Confederate slavery.
Her response was "Oh, wow, a middle class white male has an opinion on race. I don't think I'll waste time reading that." And it ended with, "Why don't you actually try talking to some black people?"
My first thought, was "Wait, this teenager is white, middle classed, middle American. This is not just the pot calling the kettle black, given my background, it's the pot calling the fine china black."
Then I thought, "That can't be what I just read. Did I just walk into The Simpsons or Monty Python?"
Then it was, "Wait, this person is supposed to be passingly aware of my background, WTF led to this outburst? Did her brain just shut down and she revert to tribal shouting?"
I bowed out of the conversation, because obviously, no rational discourse was going to be possible. We'd gone from generalizations to epithets, and by "we" I mean "she."
After that, I decided I needed to finish edits on my story collection coming out in August, and then come back to it.
So, let's go back to, "Why don't you actually try talking to some black people?"
~~~
CHALLENGE ACCEPTED.
I was in high school in the early 80s, peak of the break dancing craze, and I was a pretty damned good dancer. That means I hung out with a lot of black guys—at clubs, at school, at home. They came to my place to practice, I went to theirs. Sometimes our parents invited us or them to stay for dinner. I remember one who had a vivid sense of humor, including self-deprecating jokes when he found out we had watermelon. And yes, occasionally, one of them was a punk, but there were a lot more white punks who wanted to emulate what they thought black people were like.
Most of them lived in a slightly poorer area near the school, with numerous material goods--cars, projection TVs, which I'm led to believe was because their traditional areas were cheaper, so status was shown materially. (And for the record, we spent a couple of years receiving food stamps and other assistance after my parents divorced.)
My mother sold real estate, and occasionally (and let me stress occasionally) someone would ask about racial makeup of a neighborhood, or ask her to limit showings to whites only, and she would tell them it was illegal for her to discuss such things, or to attempt to limit purchases. Interestingly, it was generally poorer whites who were concerned about this, not middle or upper class, and it happened only a handful of times over several years.
Of course, that small element of racism does affect things, as does the natural tendency of people to form into tribes of like-minded individuals.
I had black teachers in school, and they were generally the funnest, most informative and down to earth.
The observant respondent would remember that I served in the US military. They may also be aware that the military is no longer segregated. Guess what? I was trained, and trained with, people of every race and color, some of whom barely spoke English, being either recent immigrants like myself, or from the Philippines, where we have a treaty agreement allowing them to join our military directly.
And, when I got to my permanent duty station, my roommate was…BLACK! Kersey was an odd duck from Cleveland, and we didn't talk much, until the time he threatened to kill me with his bare hands and an iron pipe, and shortly got some mental health treatment and processed out. It seems other people had had issues too.
My next roommate was a white kid from Oregon, an alcoholic, didn't last long, and moved into an abandoned mobile home with no power because he couldn't keep even a minimum wage job.
So, the last three years of my service I roomed with Wendell, who'd trained in an overlapping timeframe with me in Texas, so we already knew each other slightly. Wendell was not your typical black, I guess, since he was an immigrant from Antigua, thereby being British.
Let me elucidate for the civilians: we spent three years serving in the same unit, and sharing a 15' square barracks room. I knew him pretty damned well. We drank together, cruised bars together, did road trips to conventions together, and did a bunch of field exercises together.
Now, I had to sit down and think about all this, because my roommate was not "That black guy, Wendell." My roommate was "Wendell, the sergeant from the Power Section I spent three years of my life with." I've said it before, I will say it again—race is only important if you insist on making it important. If anyone asked, "Who do you room with?" I replied, "Wendell, Power Shop." And no one ever said, "Oh, right, the black guy." Largely because we had a LOT of "black guys" including the First Sergeant, our Section Superintendent and one of the engineers. So, yes, I took orders from black people, Hispanics, Asians, women, and never kept a tally because it never fucking mattered to me. Were they competent? By and large. Did they have the authority to define my tasks? Yes.
Were there racists in the unit? Yes, a few.
Now, for reasons not relevant here, engineering tends to congregate immigrants. My shop had me, a Mexican, and a Filipino and five native born Americans (one of them black). In the unit of 120, there were a couple of other Mexicans (And I mean men with Mexican passports, working on their citizenship, as I was), several Filipinos, another Brit, a German. We hung out in groups of our own nationality, and groups of immigrants vs native borns, and Engineers vs other units, and cadre vs transients, and AF vs other branches, and military vs civilian, because that's what people do. I rarely saw color itself be a defining matter, except among a handful (both white and black).
I do recall one asshole in my shop liked to refer to us as the "Fuzzy little foreigners." Though he generally didn't deliver it in a derogatory fashion, and we wore the sobriquet proudly. And note: I was included in that definition, despite being "White."
It wasn't the only bigotry I encountered from him, and that first roommate, Kersey, repeatedly mocked my birth nation to my face. Words were had over that. Occasionally, other people made comments about "Damned foreigners taking our jobs" and expressed that we shouldn't be allowed to own property or businesses.
Now, at least I was able to honestly identify the assholes, since I don't "look" like an immigrant, though I did still have a bit of an accent. They'd usually trot it out right in front of me, against regulations and common sense. But, bigotry works in all directions, and if you assume because I look like a certain imagined stereotype, I must think and act like said stereotype, congratulations, you just did it yourself.
So, moving on, I was Reserve and Guard for 20 years after that, and again, served with many people of many races and cultures. In fact, my last deployment was a 4-way split between Utah Air Guard (mostly Mormons), New Jersey Air Guard (mixed bag), Guam Air Guard (Mostly Chamorro people, and Catholic) and Puerto Rico Air Guard (very Hispanic and very Catholic) in a desert full of Arabs, Bangladeshis, Pakistanis, Filipinos (all Muslim), Indians (from India, and mostly Hindu, with some Muslims), Georgians (Muslims and Christians), Japanese, Koreans, Aussies and Brits. And being the military—you don't get a choice. You go fix, move or fight with whomever you're told to, and you have to manage to get along. And I enjoyed the hell out of it. We took turns doing Saturday night cultural dinners.
But that was Reserve, meaning I had a real job and a real home otherwise. And in college, I was a stripper. That meant I hung out with other strippers, mostly female, including a Thai and a very astute, striking black woman working her way through law school.
Oh, yes—it was a mostly Asian neighborhood we lived in.
Now, as far as Indianapolis, for anyone familiar with it, go take a look at East 52nd Street. I'll wait. What color are most of the people in that area? Oh, right—THEY'RE BLACK! Didn't matter to me. Most of them were good neighbors, though it was amusing watching the "photographer" next door, who never had models or materials or any camera gear, get busted by 17 cop cars and a SWAT van. That is, until he went to jail for dealing drugs and his ex and her friends burgled my house. But yup, several years in a black neighborhood as one of the few white people, and it didn't bother me at all. My daughter at age 3 insisted on stopping at several local revivals, because she's always loved to dance, and a bunch of people dancing and singing was definitely her thing, even if we're not Christian. (And before that we lived in the Irvington neighborhood, which might have a few blacks, too. I honestly never bothered to keep a tally, as hard as that is for some people to believe.)
A former girlfriend and I had a several month long affair with a full blooded Sauk woman who was a very strong LGBT and feminist activist. We didn't agree on everything, but I certainly learned a lot.
Quite a few of these people—such as the last lady—would have a strong level of agreement with many of your positions. Some would agree in part (and I do myself). Some would not agree at all. In the subjective world of human interaction, there are solution sets of right and wrong, that intersect in various ways. If you're stuck looking for one point solution, you clearly didn't manage calculus, and might need to go back and look at basic algebra again.
But let's move back to my childhood for a bit—I grew up quite poor near Liverpool, originally in a small flat with no central heat and no TV. My father is Scottish, my mother is English, and if you bother to read a little history, you might find that the two cultures had a few issues over the last few centuries.
My maternal grandfather was an RAF officer, and my mother spent several years as a child in Rhodesia, when it was Rhodesia, with all the household and base staff being local Africans. If I recall correctly, India, Cyprus and Kenya were in there, too.
Now, Britain, or rather, England, has its own history, but most of its colonial repressions were overseas, and for different motivations. And that's key. When I meet someone of a different color, my first thought isn't, and can't be, "OMG! This person's ancestors were slaves and my family profited from that!" Nope. The Brits pretty much didn’t keep slaves, my working class family certainly didn't, though several likely served on a few slave-busting ships.
No, when I meet someone of exotic looks for the area I'm in, my default thought is, "Oh, this person must be of or descended from one of our colonies." And even if some of the colonials were lower class, lower class is INFINITELY above "slave." There is simply no way possible for me to look at a black person and feel what a native born American of any color feels. Add to that, I moved here in 1978, so nothing that happened before that can possibly involve me.
If you look at my FB wall, you'll find blacks, Hispanics, whites, Asians (actually in Asia, as well as Asian Americans), transsexuals, gays, bisexuals, white people married to blacks, Hispanics and Asians, and people with backgrounds that include multiple races, cultures and ethnicities.
My friends include agents, authors, editors and technical people of (a variety of) color. We often disagree, and I've noticed that color is an issue for a lot of Americans. It's inescapable. Given the segregation issues shortly before I was born, the war a century before that, and the slavery before that, I accept it's a valid concern. But here's the important part: I don't share that concern, and assuming I do, can or must is trying to stereotype me based on my skin color.
So, you tell me, does that count as "actually talking to black people"? I'm adding up somewhere around a couple of decades or more of my experience, though as I said, I don't really keep a tally for score. I talk to PEOPLE.
See, the problem with a lot of self-claimed "liberals" is they're not. They're only tolerant if you agree with them. This seems to include you. You like it when I agree on certain gender issues. You go childishly apeshit when I just might have an informed opinion that differs slightly from yours, based on my own subjective experiences, broader world view, longer life and different background.
But even if I am "Wrong" on an entirely subjective subject, then any persuasion aimed at me must be diplomatic and with cited sources, otherwise it's simply an opinion, and available evidence suggests my opinion is more informed than yours…which does not mean it is necessarily objectively correct.
You don' t want actual debate, because it might shake you out of your comfortable worldview. What you want is tribal association.
If you look at me and assume based on my skin color I think like some stereotype of a middle class American white guy—you're a racist. If you assume that all black people agree with the position you've assigned them in your worldview—you're a racist. If you insist that people can't tell the same jokes about this President that they told about previous presidents because he's partly black and that somehow makes things different—you're a racist (especially as you insist simultaneously they can't treat him differently).
Much like the most virulent anti-gays are often hiding a secret part of their orientation that scares them, the most vocal users of the race epithet frequently demonstrate the most stereotyping and racism.
After all, let's look at your screen name again: "Ashley Protagonist Holmes." Ah, yes, the "PROTAGONIST!" The white, middle class, middle American woman flying in to right wrongs and correct perceptions, and tell people how they must think and feel, on behalf of those poor minorities who aren't capable of doing so themselves. And if you have a different perception than she? Well, then maybe you need to talk to people on her approved list, to learn the right things. No right-thinking person could disagree.
You're not a protagonist. You're not even an antagonist. You're an annoying little nit. And until you can accept and believe there are people with different worldviews, who may cross paths with you, share the path for some of the journey before taking another route, or walk alongside without joining you, you will continue to be only a minor irritant, accomplishing nothing.
In short, you need to learn how to be liberal and tolerant.
You might start by actually looking up the Wikipedia article on the word "privilege" and consider the many definitions and meanings it can have.
And then maybe go talk to some black people…who don't entirely agree with you.

I like to interact with people, and I find I learn more about them, and about myself, by interacting with people I may not agree with. Either one of us persuades the other, or we learn more about ourselves, or we find new insights into our positions.

This apparently isn't common.

I've occasionally interacted on Facebook with one [name redacted by request], as she styles herself. She's big on gender issues, race and social issues. I probably agree with her stances about 40% overall, which is better than average.

I was looking at some links on her page, and the tone there was strident. I do that myself. No harm, no foul. However, if one is fighting stereotypes, one should avoid using them oneself. I made a polite comment that a message aimed at people in general agreement, with the intent of bringing them closer, should be worded amiably, not accusatorily. She seemed to miss the thrust, replied with something else, and I posted my infamous summary of worldwide historical repression, because a lot of Americans (apparently including her) miss that there's a lot more to it than black/white and the former Confederate slavery.

Her response was "Oh, wow, a middle class white male has an opinion on race. I don't think I'll waste time reading that." And it ended with, "Why don't you actually try talking to some black people?"

My first thought, was "Wait, this teenager is white, middle classed, middle American. This is not just the pot calling the kettle black, given my background, it's the pot calling the fine china black."

Then I thought, "That can't be what I just read. Did I just walk into The Simpsons or Monty Python?"

Then it was, "Wait, this person is supposed to be passingly aware of my background, WTF led to this outburst? Did her brain just shut down and she revert to tribal shouting?"

I bowed out of the conversation, because obviously, no rational discourse was going to be possible. We'd gone from generalizations to epithets, and by "we" I mean "she."

After that, I decided I needed to finish edits on my story collection coming out in August, and then come back to it.

So, let's go back to, "Why don't you actually try talking to some black people?"

~~~

CHALLENGE ACCEPTED.

I was in high school in the early 80s, peak of the break dancing craze, and I was a pretty damned good dancer. That means I hung out with a lot of black guys—at clubs, at school, at home. They came to my place to practice, I went to theirs. Sometimes our parents invited us or them to stay for dinner. I remember one who had a vivid sense of humor, including self-deprecating jokes when he found out we had watermelon. And yes, occasionally, one of them was a punk, but there were a lot more white punks who wanted to emulate what they thought black people were like.

Most of them lived in a slightly poorer area near the school, with numerous material goods--cars, projection TVs, which I'm led to believe was because their traditional areas were cheaper, so status was shown materially. (And for the record, we spent a couple of years receiving food stamps and other assistance after my parents divorced.)

My mother sold real estate, and occasionally (and let me stress occasionally) someone would ask about racial makeup of a neighborhood, or ask her to limit showings to whites only, and she would tell them it was illegal for her to discuss such things, or to attempt to limit purchases. Interestingly, it was generally poorer whites who were concerned about this, not middle or upper class, and it happened only a handful of times over several years.

Of course, that small element of racism does affect things, as does the natural tendency of people to form into tribes of like-minded individuals.

I had black teachers in school, and they were generally the funnest, most informative and down to earth.

The observant respondent would remember that I served in the US military. They may also be aware that the military is no longer segregated. Guess what? I was trained, and train

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